Semantics ad nauseum - Christian Z vs. Z Christian, CAIR's religion, Bono's religion, and quotes from two religious works
Jollyblogger, one of the blogs on my blogroll, is listed on the Christian Top 1000. Here's a little more about this list:
Q. What is Christian Top 1000?
A. Web users can use Christian Top 1000 to find the most popular Christian sites on the web and Christian webmasters can use Christian Top 1000 to increase their traffic by tapping into the thousands of unique visitors to our site. Christian Top 1000 was created in order help people find the Christian web sites they are looking for, without having to waste a lot of time. Christian Top 1000 exists to help spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ by bringing the world to Christian websites and by bringing Christian websites to the world.
And in case you're wondering what would happen if CAIR tried to get on this list:
We reserve the right to reject, remove or edit any listing submitted to or published in the Christian Top 1000 directory, at any time and for any reason, without notice.
So why didn't I jump in and get myself listed? Because I consider myself "a blogger who is a Christian" rather than "a Christian blogger." Kinda like Bono, I guess, but without the wraparound sunglasses (or the talent).
Returning to CAIR, here's what they have to say about Franklin Graham:
Franklin Graham Reaffirms Scorn for Islam
This was not CAIR's headline - it was from the San Francisco Chronicle.
The "scorn" was expressed in an interview:
The Rev. Franklin Graham, who outraged Muslims in 2001 when he said that Islam "is a very evil and wicked religion," told an interviewer for Wednesday's edition of ABC News "Nightline" that he hasn't changed his mind about the faith.
Asked by ABC correspondent John Donvan whether Muslim groups had succeeded in altering his outlook about Islam, Graham said "No."
"Do they want to indoctrinate me? Yes. I know about Islam. I don't need an education from Islam," he said. "If people think Islam is such a wonderful religion, just go to Saudi Arabia and make it your home. Just live there. If you think Islam is such a wonderful religion, I mean, go and live under the Taliban somewhere. I mean, you're free to do that."...
The younger Graham angered Muslims following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks when he told NBC News: "We're not attacking Islam but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it is a very evil and wicked religion."
In a subsequent Wall Street Journal piece, Graham wrote that he doesn't think Muslim believers "are evil people because of their faith. But I decry the evil that has been done in the name of Islam, or any other faith _ including Christianity."
That article said "the persecution or elimination of non-Muslims has been a cornerstone of Islamic conquests and rule for centuries." Graham said the Quran "provides ample evidence that Islam encourages violence in order to win converts and to reach the ultimate goal of an Islamic world."...
Back in 2002, CAIR issued a press release about Graham, which stated, in part:
"Mainstream political leaders and religious figures must speak out against the growing demonization of Islam by extremist right-wing commentators and by representatives of the evangelical Christian community. Defamatory attacks on other faiths can only lead to a spiral of distrust and intolerance that will divide our society along religious lines," said CAIR Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper.
Hooper quoted the Quran, which states: "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." (16:125)
Best and most gracious. Well, let's see what the Quran says. Here's a search on the word "kill." Do all 44 occurrences decry the killing of believers? Not exactly:
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
[17.33] And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
Interestingly enough, many of the occurrences parallel the words of Jesus - if you were believers, why did you kill the prophets?
But it's always dangerous to look at isolated quotes, since they can be easily taken out of context. So let's take a closer look at the text from which 4.89 and 4.91 were taken. Emphasis mine.
[4.80] Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.
[4.81] And they say: Obedience. But when they go out from your presence, a party of them decide by night upon doing otherwise than what you say; and Allah writes down what they decide by night, therefore turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and Allah is sufficient as a protector.
[4.82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
[4.83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
[4.84] Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
[4.85] Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things.
[4.86] And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
[4.87] Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?
[4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.
[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.
[4.94] O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.
[4.95] The holders back from among the believers, not having any injury, and those who strive hard in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal; Allah has made the strivers with their property and their persons to excel the holders back a (high) degree, and to each (class) Allah has promised good; and Allah shall grant to the strivers above the holders back a mighty reward:
[4.96] (High) degrees from Him and protection and mercy, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Let's switch to Bono in a book excerpt, an interview that was partially reprinted in Christian Music Today:
Bono: My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?
Bono: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross.
Church Marketing Sucks has plenty to say about U2. From November 2004:
U2 has to be the most spiritually aware rock band in mainstream music. Their lyrics drip with God, salvation, love, grace and redemption as well as sin, pain, sex and death. This is a band that's willing to be honest and willing to approach the taboo, something the church hasn't always been willing or able to do.
In one of my favorite quotes from lead singer Bono, he refers to Christians as "squeakies," and elaborates saying: "Christians are hard to tolerate, I don’t know how Jesus does it.” But he adds "I'm one of them."...
U2 has constantly explored the human soul, even though the results aren't always pretty. Many Christians have decried U2 for smoking, swearing and drinking, yet Bono also asked countless times during the Elevation tour, including the Super Bowl halftime show: “What can I give back to God for the blessings he's poured out on me? I'll lift high the cup of salvation as a toast to our Father, I'll fulfill a promise I made to him." If his words have a Biblical ring, it’s because he’s loosely quoting Psalm 116. We're a broken people. Don't assume a pastor or a speaker or special guest has to be perfect. None of us are, and when we pretend to be and ignore the sin in our lives, we turn people away.
One blogger, Matt Powell, has struggled with the question of whether U2 is or is not Christian.
I was recently asked whether or not I think U2 is Christian, and why or why not. The response got a little long for the comments section, so here it is....
After quoting lyrics from various songs, Powell concludes.
The message is clear- the peace that Jesus claimed to bring is worthless....
[T]hese are the lyrics of someone who has no confidence in God to solve the world's problems or to show real love for people. If they're Christians, this is some new definition of the term. In contrast to these, I couldn't find much evidence of actual trust and faith in God. I found trust and faith in some of the concepts of Christianity like grace and forgiveness, but never actually connected with God.
Matt subsequently posted an update:
I just read this on the subject, and that makes me wonder if the lyrics quoted above are meant to be ironic, or representing struggles with faith, or something of the like. But it seems to me, if a band's going to publish lyrics like the ones I've quoted above, then he's taking a pretty definite stand. It is, to my mind, up to him to counter that with something. He can't just be coy about his faith. "If you confess me before men, I will confess you before my father in heaven. But if you deny me before men..."
See here for more.
Of course, if you were to look for supposedly Christian songwriters expressing explicitly non-Christian thoughts, you could always look at the opening lyrics of this top 150 hit:
Psalm 22:1-2 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
Boy, I hope no one's quoting those words. But don't worry, the crucifixion never happened, according to the Quran:
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
In the article Did Jesus get crucified according to Islam, the following is stated:
There is a difference of opinion as to the exact interpretation of this verse [4:158]. The words are: The Jews did not kill Jesus, but Allah raised him up (rafa'ahu...in Arabic) to Himself. Some people hold that Jesus did not die the usual human death, but still lives in the body in heaven, which is the generally accepted Muslim view. Another hold that he did die but not when he was supposed to be crucified, and that is being "raised up" unto Allah means that instead of being disgraced as a malefactor, as the Jews intended, he was on the contrary honoured by Allah Almighty as His Messenger.
At some point I'll explore the links on this page (Jihad) from the same site. Or Exposing Paul's Lies (scroll down).
Comments
Amen, amen, a thousand times amen.
Absolutely brilliant use of Psalms to make a point. I love U2.
As I said, U2 never expresses that. They express the opposite, complete lack of faith in God. As I said even in the part that you quoted, their lack of faith in God and attacks on God for not living up to Bono's expectations of what God ought to be doing are never countered with any expressions of trust and faith in God, as the Psalmist always does. So I don't know if you thought your point was to somehow refute my point, but the Psalms are a very poor place to go for support for what U2 does. And as I said in the original post, I'm not judging the man's soul. I'm just judging the so-called "spiritual" nature of his work. It's not spiritual, it's blasphemous.
I read a review of one of U2s concerts which stated he preached tolerance between Jews, Muslims and Christians. He began a chant, and everyone joined in. It was something like "Jesus, Mohamad, Yahawe - ALL THE SAME...." I dont think that's exactly right, but close. I'll see if I can find it again. The writer, who was a Christian, was creeped out (my words) by the crowd joining in with the chant.
I like the music, but I don't think it's Christian. IMO, it just has Christian themes.
Interesting stuff, OE!